Building Bigger Tables: Ben McBride on Belonging, Empathy, and Community Healing

John Marshall | 00:07
Welcome to the Humanity of Homelessness. I'm John Marshall, and this is a podcast from Church of the Park in Salem, Oregon. Since 2007, Church of the Park has created community with our neighbors living outside. Today, we get to offer collaborative navigation, emergency sheltering, workforce development, and supported housing for our neighbors in need. In each episode, we hear from a member of our community who is experiencing or has experienced homelessness. We invite them to share their story in their own words so that they and we might remember their goodness, their courage, their hope, and their humanity. You can find this podcast wherever podcasts are found, and it is helpful to us if you subscribe and share episodes that inspire you. Thanks to everyone for tuning in and joining us as we celebrate good news in the hardest, most unexpected places. Today's episode is a special one. Rather than a staff member or guest, we get to be with a friend of Church of the Park McBride. Finn is a visionary leader of radical belonging. The co-founder of the Empower Initiative, a capacity-building firm devoted to empowering organizations and communities, he is a leading expert in fostering belonging and public safety reforms. Through his dedicated work as an internationally recognized peacemaker, Faith leader, activist, and sought-after speaker uniquely develops strong leaders and builds dynamic cultures of empathy, allyship, and belonging. I've had multiple opportunities to learn from in large group settings and can attest to what I find to be an incredible ability to pull his audience members out of themselves, past their own walls of bias, and toward each other. We're so grateful at Church of the Park for his friendship and willingness to be on the podcast today. Thank you and welcome.
Ben McBride | 01:47
Hey, thanks for being here.
John Marshall | 01:48
So I know you've made Multiple visits to Salem before. What's the occasion for this visit? What are you up to on this trip?
Ben McBride | 01:56
Yeah, I actually came here in supporting some of the conversations that have been happening. That have been happening around the community violence program and some of the work that Seabell was doing along with the police department, trying to find ways to see if they can take more steps to creating a more safe Salem, Kaiser, Marion, Polk region.
So I got a chance to hang out at a breakfast today with some community members.
John Marshall | 02:21
That's really rad. I know that those conversations have been meaningful and impactful for a lot of the members of... The broader Salem community who are invested in responding to kind of the uptick of violence that we're experiencing. I'm curious, how would you describe, like, where's the state of the conversation today among that group of people? And what, I guess, what was the agenda for? Today's conversation.
Ben McBride | 02:44
Yeah, I think today was a breakthrough day. The sense that I had coming here was that there's been multiple perspectives around the conversation of violence and, you know, some justified suspicion that some communities had. Around is this approach just another way to do suppression, meaning the police are going to focus on already vulnerable communities and people who've experienced profiling in the past are just going to experience that more. Others have asked like. Are we doing this work because the people who are suffering from the violence are concerned about it? Are we doing work because people don't like their city being associated with violence and we're trying to shake the stigma? But it felt like today was a really good day. Imp. Important conversation because particularly the groups who are most impacted by the violence were giving their sign off on saying, we actually think that this is what we need to do. And they were giving me some BS tests that were good.
Like to me, that's when we're really starting to have real conversations when they were, you know, not giving the easy smile, doing the BS test and really checking to see whether this was something that could really benefit their loved ones. And It feels like folks landed in a place where they feel like it did. And I'm actually feeling really hopeful for the conversation around violence and the uptick here in.
John Marshall | 04:10
Salem. I'm so glad to hear that. And I'm curious, too. Are there other cities that you're involved similarly with in the country?
Ben McBride | 04:17
Actually, right now, as it relates to violence, Salem is the only city that I'm actually focused on. What was interesting is I had started moving away from doing a lot of. Consulting work around violence because I just was wondering, you know, is that where I should put the majority of my time? Because a lot of my energy was going towards really trying to help address polarization and fragmentation, workplaces and society. But I don't know, I felt like, you know, I don't want to try to speak for God, but I said, maybe God's calling me close to it. And, And so I'm glad to be able to connect parts of my life that were really important. Ass. Connected back to the present and doing it, in a place like Salem.
John Marshall | 05:06
Yeah. And. For you as a human being, are you someone who really likes returning to a community that you've been to before? Are you the type of guy that I want to go to a new city? I want to find a new context?
Ben McBride | 05:18
No, I actually thought about that just in my own practice and work life around. Wanting to go deep. In a few places rather than go wide in a bunch of places. I feel like the more I've come back to Salem, I'm actually starting to understand the story. When I first came up, it was like, well, there's these multiple Salem's and I didn't know what people were saying, but now I know what people are saying. It's like, okay, there's Northeast and there's West and there's South. And that actually means something.
And then the relationship between Salem and Kaiser and whether you're talking urban or rural and what are we really talking about in understanding the notion of Ike Box versus Isaac's Downtown and Broadway Coffee and what churches do what? And so I'm understanding the story a lot more. And I appreciate that because I feel less of a kind of helicopter consultant that has to land in and perform and speak.
You know, now four or five years coming back and forth to Salem, I feel a little bit more part of the community. Hope that doesn't sound strange to somebody that doesn't live here, but I feel a little bit more a part of the community. And I was telling DJ before, I actually feel a sense of ownership with the story. Not in ownership feels like a weird way, but for me, it means like buy in.
Like I care about what happens. I'm invested. There you go.
Like I care about what happens in this place. And yeah. And so it's cool to be able to be in the story, even though I don't. Live here.
John Marshall | 06:50
And so after this trip, is it back home or are you on to a new? You.
Ben McBride | 06:54
Know, I dropped in here last night from Los Angeles. I go home for three days and next week on to New Orleans, home for three days and then South Africa for 30 days.
So I am on the road pretty much until mid-July here and there. But yeah.
So that can be a little unsettling. You know, it's interesting because while I do get the luxury of, you know, staying in hotels or with folks that I know and things of that nature. Not having ritual of being able to have a place that you go to all the time with all your creature comforts, is a little bit of a disorienting dynamic. And, So, I've learned to find my peace in it, but it's different.
John Marshall | 07:43
Well, the premise of this podcast, as I was telling you before we started recording, is to invite those in our community who've experienced homelessness. To share their own story, share the wisdom that they've learned. Through their own experience of being human and the place where i always like to start is I'm asking him what is home. Where was home?
So correct me if I'm wrong, Oakland.
Ben McBride | 08:07
Correct? No, actually my home where I came from, when I think about home for myself, I think about 808 Dartmouth Street in San Francisco, which is where I was raised. It's actually where my parents still live. My dad bought the house in 1972. $4,000. It's now worth a million dollars. But they don't seem like they are leaving at any point. And so that was home for me. I lived in Oakland when I relocated my family there, but I was born and raised in San Francisco.
John Marshall | 08:38
So. Well, what then was childhood like as you were starting to learn that as home? What were the formative parts of growing up in that environment that Do this day. You look back on and go, that was important for how I understand who I am in the world.
Ben McBride | 08:52
Yeah. Well, I was born in the generation where you lived more life outside than you did in front of screens.
So knowing all the rest of the kids in the neighborhood was a part of what home meant for me. I have five siblings and so three brothers and two sisters.
So finding ways to terrorize each other in and out of the house was a part of what home meant. Having a paper route and learning my neighbors by throwing papers. And we lived on hills.
So, you know, my oldest brother always messes with me because I was, you know, the little bit of the lazy brother that. When I didn't want to deliver the papers to the right places, I would just go throw them all in the bushes and deal with the consequences after. But home for me was a deep sense of connection. And. And it was about place. No. There was probably four to six blocks in either direction that we felt like we were safe. That we were secure for no apparent reason. No one told us anything. It was almost like an imaginary line that we didn't cross. And I don't know, maybe our parents did tell us not to go past that street. But I just remember growing up in a place where I had people. I had geography. And I had safety. And it wasn't just about being holed up in our house. That sense for me, the whole neighborhood and the whole community, strangers were a part of that. Visitors were a part of that. I think that gave me a gift that... I learned over time a lot of people didn't have, but I was grateful to have.
John Marshall | 10:27
And in the midst of all that, what were you finding your own? Or locations of passion being like, thinking Was it school? Was it the classroom? Was it sports? Was it music? Was it... - Yeah. - Where did you find that your own sense of humanity was starting to form and develop.
Ben McBride | 10:45
Yeah, it's funny because I'm a big dude, as you can see. And so I was a big kid as well. I was 14 years old.
You know, I was 13. I wore size 13. People used to say, act your age, don't you shoot that. I was like, they're actually the same thing. But I was a big freshman and everyone just knew I was an offensive lineman for the football team. But I was actually a theater kid. And I was a Shakespearean theater kid, loved musicals, sang and acted, which was interesting, too, as a young adolescent boy growing up in the early 90s.
So you're talking boys in the hood era, you're talking, you know, that consciousness and, you know, here I'm this little black boy that likes to sing and sing. Stage acting. But theater was where I found my home. And I think outside of that, it was a lot of church. I grew up in church. Myself and all of my brothers and sisters ended up becoming ministers.
So the joke in our family is that it's the family business. And, you know, in our tradition, we say we don't know whether God called us or our parents took us to church too much. You don't know, but everybody went that route. And so those were the like the theater and the church.
Some might argue they're the same thing, but those were my places. I think who I became as an adult was very much so shaped by those two.
John Marshall | 12:07
As I'm listening to you now, I'm reflecting on moments where I've sat in a room and you've shared parts of your story before. And it's very obvious to me how much affection you have for your roots. For your family. Or the place that raised you. And what I really am curious about is when did your love take the shape of organizing activism?
Ben McBride | 12:31
Yeah, that was actually later in the game. And, you know, contrary to popular opinion, I haven't been doing this my whole life. It actually wasn't something I was trying to do. And I was actually running what we called a homeless shelter in Oakland and a recovery program for addicted relatives. In downtown Oakland and had been doing that for several years. And so that was kind of my day in, day out after I stopped pastoring. And we're really where I thought I was going to finish my career. But it was in 2014, you know, when Michael Brown was killed in Ferguson, Missouri, that I really kind of got pulled into Christ. Into community organizing events. When I reflect on it now, though, I had started... Being in closer to it because it was a part of the community violence work that we were doing, which for me started around 2008 to 2010. But when I really got involved in active kind of community organizing and advocacy. It was really because I sensed a moment where it just felt like... It felt like... Might be able to do something. In our generation that I felt like wasn't going to happen. And for me, what that meant was. We're going to be able to humanize black people. Country in a way that maybe the little boy in me always wanted us to be organized. And so I think I got involved in it. And I reflect on it more because I think the little boy, he won. See? As the theater kid rather than being seen. A criminal or somebody that's coming to steal your purse or somebody you got to feel uncomfortable with elevate.
So I think that's what pulled me into it. I've reflected on it more and more. I've got different feelings about that whole period of life for me. I've... I wouldn't have said this then, that that's what pulled me in. I would have said justice is what pulled me in. But I think as I reflect on it more, it was some of my own need to... Seen and be humanized at. I think pulled me into. We need you organizing at practice.
John Marshall | 14:40
Do you think there's a difference between... Sense of being seen and justice.
Ben McBride | 14:46
I don't know. Maybe. I think... I, there are things that I want in the world. And sometimes... They are the things that other people And I think we get involved in the work of justice. When the things that we need for ourselves manifest. In an issue that we can all rally around. But the issue sometimes to me is not what actually is. The main thing for all of us, it's the individual thing that we need that shows up in the issue. And I think that's why it gets different. Because when we're trying to change the world, there's a lot happening beyond what we're talking about. It's really just not the issue. It's I want to be seen. I want to be recognized. I want to be loved. I want a sense of belonging. I want to live my life with purpose. These are all these things that are happening for us. I actually think. Probably always been that way.
John Marshall | 15:49
I really want. To give you time to talk about like what you're up to today. Different projects you're up to today.
So really briefly, Can you give the like... Highlights from 2014. When the moment presented itself. To now, which is you are a capacity builder. You help people. Communities, organizations, companies, whatever, think about what does it mean to do everything you just talked about. Respond to the... Belonging. Thriving. Etc. What are the stops along the way from 2014 to today? That you're really proud are part of your story.
Ben McBride | 16:30
Yeah. Thanks for asking that.
I mean, hands down to me, the best work that I got a chance to be a part of. Was the Oakland ceasefire work. Save lives. I only got. It's going to take something pretty deep to dethrone that in my heart because I got a chance to meet everybody from...
You know emmet to jabari to jose to jesus like these are real people that i continue to see I'm pretty confident because they've said it to me that they would not be alive if we would not have committed ourselves to the work that we do. We started doing that work in 2012 or so and did it solid for five to six years. At least I did on the front lines. And so that means. Leading night walks every Friday in the rain. Eat and those night walks are still happening right now 13 years later it's a that's now become something that I'm glad to know that it lived beyond me and continues to help people onboard into the story. But then we were able to take on coming out of the moment where a lot of people were in conflict around police community relationships. And I was able to help lead the race and identity profiling board with the Department of Justice and do a lot of work. California all the way to D.C. And around the country, finding a way to. Really bring together law enforcement and community in a way, bring them in relationship to work together while still having things in conflict and, It's actually how I met Chief Trevor Womack. That's the police chief here in Salem. But I met him 10 years ago at one of these tables. We were in New York together and training and doing work. And so to watch how those relationships have lasted over time. And I think, you know, that work leading into, I think, in 2018 or so, I really started sensing that. What I had learned from working close to... Unhoused relatives, addicts and young people that were shooting at each other, law enforcement that was being shot at and shooting at folks in the community. Was that there was something more that we needed to do with each other, which was to see each other. Rather than just try to change the issues that kept us in conflict. And so I made a pivot. Which was a hard pivot. Because I actually had a lot of momentum. In the work that I had been doing, which was what I used to call "hook out"
You know, it was the more... Emotionally demonstrative version of myself. And I spent some time in therapy. And I spent some time really trying to figure out what was going on for me and how I reemerged was kind of on the other side of the pandemic. Really thinking about how could we still confront injustice around us, but deal with who we need to become. As human beings, service to that end. And so I would say like from the violence work and the police trust building work that then has led up now to... Some really important work to me, which is about how to actually bring people.
Yeah, there are cross difference. And actually... Help them see that we're not actually teaching them to do something they don't know. We're actually helping this. Get okay with sharing the love and the generosity that they have for people. Who are different from them. We're empowering them to know that they can actually do that with people and still disagree and have things in conflict. And so I see the work that I'm doing now as spiritual work. Not necessarily religious work, but deeply. Spiritual. Out. Helping people Connect to their. Manatee.
John Marshall | 20:34
So is that Empower Initiative? Is that the work of... - Empower that you're describing right there?
Ben McBride | 20:40
It is the work. Yeah, the work of Empower is where I like to call us a leadership development firm. We're an organization that is really immersive learning and consulting. Trying to help people find the solutions for the challenges of their particular area in ways that are rooted in their own story. And so I was heavily impacted by a mentor of mine, John Powell, who's at UC Berkeley, the other, again, belonging incident. He's like a, Six foot four black dude that is a Buddhist and he talks in a very quiet voice and I tell him he's the Yoda belonging. I'm a Star Wars nerd. And he really, you know, changed me. And that's the message that Empower carries, because what John said. Helped me find in myself when I just felt like, you know, the tables that we were trying to organize to make a better world were too small. And trying to figure out, well, who deserves a table? I'm sorry, who deserves a seat at the table? Don really challenged me to build a bigger table. And become like a spiritual construction worker. That actually is thinking about building bigger tables, not to just, include those that I agree with, but to include those that I disagree with and to humanize That's what Empower does. We help people grow. Learn how to deal with that conflict on the inside about certain people don't deserve a seat at my table. But we help you deal with that and think about how do you build a bigger table there?
You know, if you're a progressive, you don't have to give up your progressiveness. If you're a conservative, you don't have to give up your conservativeness. You can actually build a bigger table. That doesn't mean that you got to be best friends with everybody in order to make decisions together for everybody.
John Marshall | 22:31
When I read your bio, I mean, I copy and pasted it off your website, as I'm sure you figured out in two seconds. I could have read more because there's more on your website, including recognition that you've earned. Work and Some name dropping.
Ben McBride | 22:49
There is some name dropping.
John Marshall | 22:52
And so rather than just reading all of that, Will you talk about... Recognition you earned. Who are the people in the world who have said to you, Well done.
Ben McBride | 23:02
Yeah, I mean, it's really been an amazing ride, especially because... 10 or 15 years ago, I was literally a volunteer in this. With no trajectory. Be engaged in this. But everything from, you know, Vice President Kamala Harris asking me to help steer the work around race and identity profiling. Being in various meetings with her and coordinating with her when she was the Attorney General, to being in the seats with many police chiefs who are on the right Republican side of the aisle, being in conversations with them. And I've worked with over 100 police departments and law enforcement executives. I've been able to share and bring direction to the national organizations where police chiefs gather from all around the country to think about how they implement these strategies of public safety and community trust building. Been able to be in films like The Force, which is a documentary that won the Sundance Film Festival Award around telling the story of policing and safety and community. And I've had the opportunity because of that to move. In places around the country. I've... Spent time in Israel and Palestine. I've been right outside of Gaza with the really Important conversation that's happening right now in deep relationship with both Israeli and Palestinian peacemakers. Who have taught me the notion that they really are contending for a wider circle of human concern that has room for everyone's suffering. And now I spend probably two months a year between Johannesburg and Cape Town, South Africa, engaging in work, learning from others while getting to bring leadership for people who are thinking about how to, They merge 30 years now from the system of apartheid and really remake and reimagine a new story.
So it's been really interesting to me. And I'm a little bit of an explorer in terms of identity and identity. The most fascinating thing to me about it is how similar all of these conversations are. And we make these conversations. No, this is just what's happening where I live. I'll go to Cape Town. It's like the same conversation, but instead of rural urban, it's township versus city center.
And then you go to Israel, Palestine, and it's West Jerusalem and East Jerusalem. And then I go to California and it's the hood and the birds. And you come here to Salem, Oregon, and it's Northeast Salem and South Salem. And what I continue to find is like, this is the same conversation that we're having, which is, How do we? Learn how to respond to the anxiety we feel about difference without violence. Who's willing to be brave enough? To say that I'm going to humanize my neighbor Even though I deeply.
John Marshall | 26:04
As you were naming all those different contexts, that was exactly my reflection is. You are literally flying across the globe to do the same exact work that you're doing. My backyard. And when I listened to you and even in our session with our staff this morning, there is a familiarity there. With the work. That like formulaic is not the right word. But it is so much a part of your DNA and your language. Navigate a very consistent. Comment. Conversation.
So now what I'm wondering is when you show up, in any of those places, or if you show up in a brand new place that you've never been before. Knowing that the conversation that you're about to encounter is probably identical to the one that you've just come from. One that you had in a different city six months ago. And thinking of yourself, to use the metaphor of spiritual instruction, builder You step into a community. Know that there are relationships that are fractured. There are camps of humans who look at the other camps of humans and say, They're the problem. Fix them. Where is the place that you... Start. Where is the place?
Like, and what are the, to use the, A metaphor, what are the tools that you place in people's hands to say, you actually get to build the table.
Ben McBride | 27:31
I love this metaphor we're playing with of a spiritual construction worker. I don't think it I've ever used it before. I would say the first thing, though, that I show up with. Is empathy. And recognizing that. At whatever moment in the conversation that I think I understand it, I should figure out what's the next best question I can ask. Rather than a statement that I could say. Because I don't know enough. I will never know enough. Because I'm not everybody and they're not me.
So I'm always thinking about what more can I ask? How curious can I become? To hear and to listen. But I show up with that empathy and recognizing that probably the mistrust that people have is justified in some kind of way. They've had an experience that is rooted itself in them, which is why their heels are dug in. And really my invitation to them and the tools that I'm looking to put in their hands are first the tools to recognize that, you know, I want to model empathy to them so that they have it to model and practice themselves. And so for me, a lot of that is rooted in this notion of creating the space for them to be able to tell their own story.
And then... Offering the materials to people that are accessible to us, right?
So if we're going to build a house instead of you know, showing up with, materials that they don't recognize, you show up with nails and two by fours and a hammer like that. Pretty much all of us know what we're supposed to do with those. And that's the way that I approach this practice. Show up with. The two by fours of. We've got to create some space for some meetings. The hammer of we're going to have to be willing to listen, to understand rather than just listening to be understood. It's showing up with the space of asking people to continue to. Imagine the sense of belonging that they want and to imagine how the person that they see as different in have that sense of belonging that they want. And so we try to engage people with very practical, accessible tools. And I found that in order to stay in the story with people. I have to manage my own expectations. I would love for people... More open with each other quickly. That's not what I've discovered in myself or for others. That if I've been hurt, If I've been rubbed the wrong way, usually I need some time for healing. And, you know, sometimes I feel like when we do get hurt and we've got some trauma, that trauma kind of becomes a golem of sorts for those that get the Lord of the Rings reference.
You know, it's like my precious, you know, like we hold on to our trauma in a way where I don't want to let it It becomes our comfort.
John Marshall | 30:27
Go. It becomes our comfort.
Ben McBride | 30:29
We're so used to telling this story about these people or about this scenario that to let go of that. Is a thing. And now you've got to open yourself up to a new story and a new identity. And so I'm all about giving people space for that, though, because, you know.
You know, we're all coming from a different place. And, you know, I've told this story all around the country. One of my first meetings here in Salem when DJ invited me here before the pandemic was And I came and it was a white brother sitting in the audience. And when I got done, he threw his hand up and I just, with my own bias was going, I think this guy's about to give me a tough comment or something. And he just looked at me and he said, All right. I'm with you.
Like this thing you're talking about for about belonging. I'm with it. And he said, but do I got to become a liberal? And I literally busted up laughing. I had not identified myself as a liberal, but he could hear it in my tone. He could hear it in what I described. And what I heard him saying was, I'm with you, but I don't want to give up my identity as a conservative. And I felt what he was naming was, I feel like the only way that we're going to get a chance to do something is if somebody changes the other person to become who they are. And. My deep commitment around belonging is belonging cannot be colonialism. The entry for people into the circle of belonging is not people become you. We have to actually learn how to appreciate people for who they are. And I feel like if you give people the tools on how to actually manage their stress while engaging with somebody who's different, most people don't. Will lean into that opportunity to be generous.
John Marshall | 32:21
I know we only have a few minutes left. Before we go, I really want to give you an opportunity. About alabama England. That has been a really significant experience for many of the folks at Church of the Park and their own story of becoming. They reflect on that experience. Transformative. It's not an experience I've had. As much as like, I want to say that. I'm thankful and I'm grateful that my K-12 education seemed to talk about civil rights in a healthy way, maybe not perfect, but then I listen to people who've been there. They've walked the streets. They've had conversations with the leaders of the movement.
Something about their consciousness is different. Space.
So I would just want you to share, what is the Alabama Learning Lab? What is that experience? How did it come about?
Ben McBride | 33:22
Yeah, well, the first thing we got to do is make sure we get you there. But, Yeah, it actually emerged from... It's an interesting story that most people don't know, which is I was in Birmingham, Alabama. Around police community relationships and reducing community violence. And it was held at this building and I arrived super early. It was still a little dim, so I didn't pay any attention. But in any case, as I'm leaving the building... I get a message from Southwest Airlines that my plane has just been delayed. I'm like, great.
So it felt strange to go back into the building after I just did this huge goodbye, everyone, and I'm leaving and all my final remarks. And as I'm standing there and I'm trying to figure out, well, what do I do now that I have three or four hours and nowhere to go? And I look up to my left and I see a sign that says the 16th Street Baptist Church. And immediately I think about the story that I heard all the time as a kid of the four little girls who were at Sunday school and were killed when a terrorist put a bomb there at the church. And I said, well, if that's the church, and then I looked across the street and looked at all these monuments in this park. I said, that has to be the park where all the images we have of kids being hit by fire hoses and... German Shepherd dogs. And so with my luggage, I literally walk around this park for an hour and a half. And there's a collection of tears and thoughts. Sitting down on the bench and wondering. And the whole idea of, I was asking myself the fundamental question. What would make?
Some human beings. Turned dogs and a fire hose. On children. And... As I sat there and thought about that, I said to myself, they did not see them. As their... 10. And I said to myself, we've got to figure out how to help us see each other as related. And so on the flight home. Is when I first conceived the Alabama Learning Lab after that. If Southwest would have been on time, maybe there's never an Alabama Learning Lab. But because of good old Southwest, home, I sketched out the learning lab. And at this point, we've now carried. Easy over 600 leaders from around the country and over. 20 trips through that journey. And what the Learning Lab is about for me is actually not about civil rights. It's really a story. About Othering. And belonging. And what happens when any group of people... Looks at another group of people and says, because I feel you are a threat to me, I'm going to dehumanize. And what the lab is about is exploring. What happens in the face of that and how we can be cruel to each other, but how people who were even experiencing that othering still chose nonviolent ways. To construct a new story out of that included the very people who once had been dehumanizing them. And so for me, it's not a story about civil rights as much as it is a story about America. And a story that hopefully can inspire us in our current moment to ask, who's being othered now? And what are the ways that instead of meeting that othering with more othering, We could actually meet that othering with belonging. And even if there are people who are currently right now complicit in the dehumanization of some human beings around us, how can we even imagine a future world that has room for those people? Where we don't dehumanize them. I love a quote, I spent some time with Andrew Young, who was one of the deputies to Martin Luther King Jr. We were at the Sunnylands Ranch some years ago, and he told me, he said, you know, "I used to get mad at Martin so much "because he used to make me go and meet with the white people "before we had to go into a town and do an action." He said, "And the other black leaders would Dall-E "and Uncle Tom and tease me about it. And I came back and I said, Martin, why are you doing this? And he said, Martin asked me, well, are you an Uncle Tom, Andy? He said, no, I'm not one. He said, well, what does it matter what they say? Do work that can actually help bring healing.
And then he told me another story. He said, after one action, we're all at a house together. And he said, a lot of people, we had just been met with a lot of racism when we were trying to do a demonstration. And he said, a lot of the leaders who happen to be black were all complaining and saying, why are we trying to do this work with these white people? They just don't want to share a world with us. Why are we trying to do it? And he said, Martin walked into the room and he said, can I say something? And we were like, go ahead, Martin, say what you got to say. He said, he looked at us and he said, yeah. White people. Are no more. Inferior. Because of their racism. Then we are superior. Because of our ability to see it. He said we were both born into an unjust story. Now, our work is to make sure that we get our people who are experiencing racism out of this scenario. But if we don't make sure that we do so in a way that doesn't have hatred in our hearts. If we make sure that we do it in a way that doesn't have hatred in our hearts, then the world that we build will be a world for the white people as well. And I'm so inspired by this notion, even in the moments that we're in right now. He can build a better world that even has room for the people that we don't get along with. Maybe it's not race. Maybe it's class. Maybe it's citizenship. Maybe it's political ideology. Maybe it's religion. Maybe it's gender. Whoever, you know, someone's other is, I'm hopeful that we can dig deep as spiritual construction workers. And build a world that has room for everybody. The Learning Lab invites people to think about that And I'm really hoping we all spend the time, whether it's in a learning lab or in another way with another organization, let's find a way to build a bigger circle. So that we all got room to thrive.
John Marshall | 39:50
For expanding my categorization of civil rights, just a story of being here. I will. I'd love to. We always end each podcast with a round of 10 questions just to get to know you as a person.
Yeah. Before that, will you just plug... Your own Stuff. For someone who's listening to go, this guy sounds cool. I want to learn more about his work, what he's done, what he's up to, what he will be doing. How can people follow along with you?
Ben McBride | 40:22
Yeah, let's be friends. Number one, find me on social media. We'd love to connect with you. Send me a DM and say what's up on Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook X. Would love to just get proximate with you. You can find more about my work at BenMcBride.com and more about Empower's work at FosteringBelonging.org. If you're an organization, maybe you want to think about how you can address this within your own context. We'd love to have a conversation with you there.
John Marshall | 40:49
Right on. Well, here are 10 questions for those listening to get to know you better. You ready for them? I'm ready. Okay. Number one, what is the best dessert?
Ben McBride | 41:00
Man. Carrot cake. And I'm going to get in trouble for that.
John Marshall | 41:05
A genie grants you one wish. What do you wish for?
Ben McBride | 41:08
To meet Jesus the Christ.
John Marshall | 41:11
Would you rather go back in time to meet your ancestors or travel to the future to meet your descendants?
Ben McBride | 41:16
Certainly got to go meet my ancestors.
John Marshall | 41:19
Cats or dogs.
Ben McBride | 41:21
Pogs.
John Marshall | 41:22
Apples or oranges?
Ben McBride | 41:24
Oranges.
John Marshall | 41:26
Favorite smell.
Ben McBride | 41:27
My wife's Perrie Ellis perfume.
John Marshall | 41:30
What is one thing you would add to Salem, Oregon to get better?
Ben McBride | 41:34
Money.
John Marshall | 41:35
What piece of advice has helped you the most?
Ben McBride | 41:39
If you honor God will honor you.
John Marshall | 41:43
What is your favorite thing about yourself?
Ben McBride | 41:46
A voice.
John Marshall | 41:48
What is your biggest hope for your future?
Ben McBride | 41:52
That I lived long enough to meet my great-grandchildren.
John Marshall | 41:56
Well, thank you. So much for being a guest on the podcast. I'm sharing your story and sharing your wisdom. I think I said it. At the beginning of the episode, and I'll reiterate it now, you are a human being who has earned your wisdom. And it is a privilege to sit. Not your feet. Listen. See a more beautiful world through your eyes.
So thank you for. Responding to the world with grace, with resilience, with empathy. Passion. For helping make Salem better. A lot. To get to participate in this community. I know that it is well cared for by more than just who lives here.
Yeah. And... Thank you, listeners, for joining us on this episode of the Humanity of Homelessness. Thanks again to for his vulnerability. Courage to share his story. We hope his life serves as testimony to the rest of us that there is always good news to celebrate. Hard places, and that all of our neighbors are worth our time and attention. If you'd like to remain connected with us at Church of the Park, please visit our website at churchatthepark.org. There you can find opportunities to volunteer, subscribe to our newsletter and weekly liturgy reflections, and stay in the know about our current and future projects. We have an online portal for financial giving. If you have questions for us or want to connect for a cup of coffee, We have lots of team members who would like to pay for your cup. Email us at info at churchatthepark.org. Again, that is info. I-N-F-O-N. At Church at the Park, .org. Thanks, y'all. Until next time.